Why. Why, Why? Please tell me

Larren · October 2018

I wonder if anyone can explain to me why the several books I have on Amazon have apparently sold and are being resold in Book Depository, Paperback Shop, Booksplease, Blackwells, etc yet I haven't received a penny for them? I published my son and granddaughter's book Mr Pink and they were checking it out on Amazon and noticed this. I hadn't and they asked me about it. It was true for my books too. Can anyone explain what happens to the money?

Just Kevin · October 2018

I don't know what you mean by resold. A book with an ISBN can be advertised for sale by any retailer. When one sells it's printed via POD and at the end of the month you get a royalty paid via Lulu. But often only if the amount = a minimum amount per site. So, those other places have not bought them, they are using your ISBN to advertising your book as being available (via POD.)

Oh, some pretend they have used books for sale, when often they are not used at all, and they have in fact got no copies at all.

Larren · October 2018

Thanks Kevin, I sent your explanation to my son and grandchild.

MCWriting · October 2018

Hi Larren. You control the distribution of your book in your Lulu account settings. You can have it for sale only on Lulu, or select wider distribution, which includes many other vendors like Amazon, Bookdepository.com and Booksplease. These vendors will advertise your book using the info you provided to Lulu. If they sell a copy you'll get a royalty. I believe all Lulu-affiliated vendors are respectable and dutifully report any sales. What's the author name? I'll poke around to make sure everything looks legit.

Just Kevin · October 2018

I am sure that's what I said ...

Just Kevin · October 2018

Ah. Liz!

Larika · October 2018

larren is my husband, but I'd posted the comment. Paul explained how that had happened.

john_m_haines_books · October 2018

On the odd occasion, primary retailers and some third party vendors will have copies, either printed in-house (or by their own print-partners), or procured at wholesale. They do this for a variety of reasons; sometimes it's because they believe the book has enough promise to guarantee sales, sometimes it's reasons for their own which befuddle everyone else. It's not a sale though, no royalties are due just because they have these, it's when they sell them on that the royalties are due. This situation can sometimes look as if there's been unlawful printing / procurement, but it isn't; it's just one of those things, as they say. Not a problem 99% of the time, it's when you want to remove the book from distro that a problem can arise. Some sellers refuse to delist and only promise to do so when their physical stock has finally sold. I got clobbered by this some time back and to this day, defunkt editions, by anyone's standards, are still listed here and there.

Larika · October 2018

Yes thanks Michael the book's authors are Gary and Lana Keimach but I think my son was quite happy with Kevin's answer. As far as I'm concerned I'm not expecting to make much money on my books. I generally buy them and give them to family and friends so naturally no profit!! lol. The ebook novels are often free because they carry a message that I'm trying to get out there.

Just Kevin · October 2018

But if the books originated at Lulu, then no matter what any place buys them for, stock or otherwise, they would still show as a sale in our Revenue, and there's no great advantage in retailers stocking POD books, it defeats the object of POD. None created until a sale is made. There's no real Wholesale within POD either. Many places pretend to carry stock, but they don't (or we would have been paid for it!)

Amazon for one say they do not remove out of print books in case a 3rd party retailer on Amazon has stock, or used ones for sale. Seeing as they are created by Self-publishing POD, often with very low sales, or even none, we know exactly how many of our books are in circulation around the retailers.

john_m_haines_books · October 2018

Overall, Kev, you may be right, but equally, you may not be. Like other issues, it's an old chestnut, and, as with other issues not long after distro began to gain popularity (although one heck of a price in those days), rows erupted over this, and as far as I recall, was never really resolved. You are wrong on the stock issue though, I was helped by support here as well as a CEO of another POD company, to finally get some books removed from distro. The result was more than one retailer, Amazon included (though not UK, one of the other regions) simply would not delist the book as they had stock. I was told to go and buy all the copies they had, 6 I believe, in order for them to scrap the listing. It really is one of those things where words and phrases like 'usually', or 'in the main' are taken to mean stock is never held at all by Amazon and others; as I've said before, on the odd occasion, admittedly very seldom I suppose, they do.

Just Kevin · October 2018

Overall, Kev, you may be right, but equally, you may not be.

Possibly both but I go off what I see and what others witness.

Like other issues, it's an old chestnut, and, as with other issues not long after distro began to gain popularity (although one heck of a price in those days),

I recall Lulu having two options, one was Global and I think they charged $45 for it? The other was free (just to Amazon I think.)

rows erupted over this, and as far as I recall, was never really resolved.

That must have been pre-2010 on Lulu then? I think I have been here since then! It seems longer, and it may be!

You are wrong on the stock issue though, I was helped by support here as well as a CEO of another POD company, to finally get some books removed from distro.

Books that had been printed as 'Stock'? but not paid for? That really does not seem legal. Did they have Lulu ISBNs? Lulu and their designated printers as the prime source?

The result was more than one retailer, Amazon included (though not UK, one of the other regions) simply would not delist the book as they had stock. I was told to go and buy all the copies they had, 6 I believe, in order for them to scrap the listing. It really is one of those things where words and phrases like 'usually', or 'in the main' are taken to mean stock is never held at all by Amazon and others; as I've said before, on the odd occasion, admittedly very seldom I suppose, they do.

Amazon own CreateSpace, and CreateSpace print books (but only when ordered on Amazon I would have thought?) so no doubt the temptation is there to print a bit of 'stock' while the files are running in the machine. But it really is not legal, because in principle, even stock is a sale, and should be paid for accordingly. There was also another printer that Lulu used to use, who are also a self-publishing portal.

john_m_haines_books · October 2018

You've summarised the old problem perfectly; maybe the issue has never been resolved, and perhaps never will. (This kicked off well before 2010 though, I recall rows on the forums over it from when I was an ordinary member in 2004/5 and for the early part of my 3 year employment with them). For my money though, even though I am a self-publisher not store owner, I can accept the fact that stocks of POD books are more waiting to be sold to then generate revenue, rather than their being considered sales just by virtue of being on the shelf. After all, if they did divvy up at this stage, yet didn't sell them on in a timely fashion, they'd soon be hunting us down for the money back.

Just Kevin · October 2018

POD does not offer Sale or Return, or any form of Credit, so if any outlet has stock, they should have paid for it, and we should have been paid our cut of it.

It is complex though. If some on line retailer makes a sale, is that transmitted to Lulu to fill the order? Or can that retailer order it direct from a printer that Lulu uses? I would hope not because that can cut out the middleman, Lulu, and also us. Do any printers keep the files for our books on their system? If so then what safeguards are there to stop them printing off a few dozen for some retailer, and we know nothing about it! But they should still be classed as a 'trade' sale and we get our share.

And how about places like Amazon who have a subsidiary that owns POD printing machines? If they keep our PR PDFs in their systems, which they do, what is stopping them printing many off, at cost?

I have been a buyer for companies. If I ordered items, I had to pay for them. If I was then able to run a few off, even just for my own use, I would have been infringing copyright.

See what this example book copyright states >>

All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, distributed, or transmitted in any form or by any means, including photocopying, recording, or other electronic or mechanical methods, without the prior written permission of the publisher, except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical reviews and certain other noncommercial uses permitted by copyright law. For permission requests, write to the publisher, addressed “Attention: Permissions Coordinator,” at the address below.

Imaginary Press
1233 Pennsylvania Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94909
www.imaginarypress.com

Surely that also more or less covers no printing out in its entirety, too?

By slapping an ISBN on to our books only gives places the opportunity to advertise them for sale.

Why. Why, Why? Please tell me

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