How can I fix spacing issue between last line of text and footer?

So I am formatting a Word doc manuscript (for a friend) for a print book (novella) and for some reason the blank space between the last line of a page and the footer is not the same on all the pages (not counting the last page of a chapter, which of course will have different amount of blank space depending on the length of text there). In the Pagination setting the Window/Orphan control and all the other options are unchecked. No matter what I try to do this issue doesn't fix. I am attaching a screenshot but I didn't want her text visible so put a gray box around it. I tried googling and youtubing and cannot seem to find a solution. Anyone know how this can be fixed?
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  • MaggieMaggie Creator
    Remove Window/Orphan control in the whole document. Select all, paragraph, indents and spacing then uncheck it.

    Also, f you have a drop cap this affects the space available for that page. Try removing the drop cap.

    Another thing you can try is condense or expand font manually on pages where it's very obvious. Highlight text, font, condense font by .1 or .2.

    Orphan control unchecked throughout book should fix it though. 


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  • lovebuglenalovebuglena Author
    edited June 8
    I selected all the text in the doc and unchecked orphan control and the other options and that didn't do anything. And I did not use drop cap anywhere in the book. 
  • MaggieMaggie Creator
    Does it happen everywhere or just the first page of each chapter is shorter than the rest?
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    * Print Book and Ebook Formatting Services http://www.custom-book-tique.com/

  • Within the chapter there can be pages where the space between last line and footer is not the same.
  • KeevesKeeves Author
    The first thing that came to my mind had nothing to do with widows/orphans at all. It might be due to the number of paragraphs and the spacing between the paragraphs.

    Let's say that I'm using a font where each line is 10 points high, and there's an extra 8 points between paragraphs. If I have two paragraphs of five lines each, that's a total of 108 points (50+8=50).  If I have three paragraphs of three lines each (30+8+30+8+30), that will total only 106 points, and the last line will be slightly farther from the bottom of the page than in the previous case.
  • MaggieMaggie Creator
    It has to do with the spacing for sure, but Word manages that automatically. If there's no room on that page due to the amount of words per line, lines per paragraph and lines per page, the text is moved to the next page with Orphan control.

    Anyway, I would love to look at it and play around with it to see what's up.
    __________________________
    * Print Book and Ebook Formatting Services http://www.custom-book-tique.com/

  • A_A_CainA_A_Cain Oz Creator
    Maggie said:
    It has to do with the spacing for sure, but Word manages that automatically. If there's no room on that page due to the amount of words per line, lines per paragraph and lines per page, the text is moved to the next page with Orphan control.
    Agree. I realised with mine (after they were printed) that the spacing after a chapter heading (larger font) should have been tweaked to equal an exact number of normal font lines. That is, 14 + 34 = 48 = 4 lines @ 12 font.  Similarly, I wasn't using an exact line number of spaces before a section break, so the text on the left and right pages lost alignment at the bottom. Orphan control then kicked in, which also leaves the bottom of the text blocks uneven on each page.

    If I was a type-setting purist, I should go back and fiddle with it, but it's not really worth the cost of new proofs. Perfection costs money.  It's irrelevant for e-books anyway, so it's been a learning curve thing.  A good thread, though, it made me think about things that can easily be fixed for the next book.
  • lovebuglenalovebuglena Author
    edited June 13
    Maybe it has to do with the amount of words on a page or in a line that is causing this? But at any rate, visually there clearly is room for another line on some pages (where the space is bigger) and yet the line doesn't move down to those pages when I hit backspace or when I press delete at end of the last line on those pages. Very frustrating. I guess readers won't pay much attention to that but it is bugging me and I hate that this seems unfixable. 
  • My spacing between paragraphs is the same as it is between lines in a paragragh.
  • A_A_CainA_A_Cain Oz Creator
    My spacing between paragraphs is the same as it is between lines in a paragragh.
    So you're saying you have equal length blocks of text on the left and right pages (line-count wise) with no other spacing or font size differences (eg: chapter headings or section breaks)? If so, you've possibly got some hidden stuff in the Docx. 

    But I see from another enquiry you've also got illustrations - if it's the same book, then every illustration is going to mess with the purist line spacing too. Seems to be you're up against a software constraint in the Docx, and there's too much going on in the pdf conversion.

    You could micro-juggle line heights or add micro-spaces between paragraphs to even up the bottom (lines with very small font sizes but no text). But that would be very tedious - is it worth it?  Who are the primary customers? Will they care?

    That's a lesson I learned from project management - if there's no stakeholder or the customer doesn't care, be very clear why you're spending time (which equals somebody's money) doing something. There might be no practical reason, in which case, you could be wasting time and money chasing a quality factor you might not need. It's the classic "cost-time-quality" triangle, applied to typesetting. They are all linked, and the lump sum is usually always finite. Find out if anybody cares, would be my suggestion, and act accordingly. Good luck :).
  • lovebuglenalovebuglena Author
    edited June 14
    A_A_Cain said:

    So you're saying you have equal length blocks of text on the left and right pages (line-count wise) with no other spacing or font size differences (eg: chapter headings or section breaks)? If so, you've possibly got some hidden stuff in the Docx. 

    The first page of a chapter has no header/footer but in comparison to other pages in the chapter it does have more spacing between last line and footer (if I were to have it there) because chapter heading is much bigger size than the rest of the text. But non-first pages... some pages have one line less than they should (have no idea why) hence why there is a difference in spacing between last line and footer. And trying to move the top line of the next page to the bottom of the previous page (which has the one less line) doesn't work. It doesn't move. But (just tried this) if I add a few extra letters to that last line then the top line from the other page moves to the bottom of the previous page and all is well. But of course those extra letters cannot be there. Maybe there is a set number of characters that has to exist on a page or something for the spacing to be even?
  • Not counting the first page of a chapter why some pages have one less line than others is very puzzling to me...
  • A_A_CainA_A_Cain Oz Creator
    I've just noticed that my print books have random line counts - the left page might be one line less than the right page, regardless of paragraph breaks or section breaks, and regardless of the original docx page breaks. And it's random.

    I always load docx and use the Lulu converter to generate the print-ready file - I was getting too many failures using third party pdf converters, and, after some to-and-fro with Lulu tech support, that was their advice. I suspect it's a pdf conversion glitch of some sort, and you need to decide how important it is (for me, it doesn't matter, and I never fuss what doesn't matter).

    Your complication, though, is your illustrations - my books are all plain text.
  • marquesamarquesa Creator
    I once had the same problem. Selecting all and unchecking the widows/orphans DIDN'T fix it. I found that if I highlighted the last few lines of an uneven page and the first lines of the next page and then opened paragraph dialogue box the widows/orphans box had some how checked itself again. I went through the whole doc like this, wherever there were uneven lines, highlight as above, open widows/orphans, uncheck. It's takes a while but worked for me.
  • A_A_Cain said:
    I always load docx and use the Lulu converter to generate the print-ready file - I was getting too many failures using third party pdf converters, and, after some to-and-fro with Lulu tech support, that was their advice. I suspect it's a pdf conversion glitch of some sort, and you need to decide how important it is (for me, it doesn't matter, and I never fuss what doesn't matter).
    I create my PDFs in Word by doing Save As PDF.
  • marquesa said:
    I once had the same problem. Selecting all and unchecking the widows/orphans DIDN'T fix it. I found that if I highlighted the last few lines of an uneven page and the first lines of the next page and then opened paragraph dialogue box the widows/orphans box had some how checked itself again. I went through the whole doc like this, wherever there were uneven lines, highlight as above, open widows/orphans, uncheck. It's takes a while but worked for me.

    I just went to a page that had one less line than it should. I highlighted a few bottom lines of text there along with a few lines of text on top of the next page and I went to the Paragraph --> Line and Page Breaks window and everything there is not checked. 


  • MaggieMaggie Creator
    Check your footers and headers. Double click on them. Make sure left or right doesn't have a tab or paragraph mark. Check spacing before and after.

    Lastly, save 10 pages of your Word doc and upload here. We can have a look and help you figure out the problem. You can delete later on.
    __________________________
    * Print Book and Ebook Formatting Services http://www.custom-book-tique.com/

  • lovebuglenalovebuglena Author
    edited June 20
    I was never able to figure out a solution and decided to just let it go. At the end of the day it's not super important. And my friend who I did the book for was ok with it.
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