Why can't I delete my files? [ Edited ]

[Nohoarii]

In teh greater scheme of things what difference does it make whether files are deleted or retired? They're never going to be used by anyone. Or am I being too cavalier about an important issue?

Trevor

[Belinda D'Alessandro]

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wolfsinger wrote:

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As a small press publisher - my contracts with my authors are for 5 years - at that time a book (unless we reach an agreement to extend the contract) is taken out of print. That Lulu holds these files - which they have no right to - in archive means that the files can pop up again in violation of copyright.

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Complicated issue.

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It's more likely that it's a tax requirement that Lulu keep copies of files that have been printed for tax purposes than breaching copyright law. I've been able to delete projects and files associated with unprinted projects but not files associated with printed projects.

Tax laws in my country require me (and the local printers I use) to keep files for a minimum of 7 years AFTER I've reported the income from those files (and receipts for 7 years after I've claimed them as a tax deduction from them), even if I don't have the publishing rights to the files anymore.

Lulu makes money only  from files that have been printed and in all likelihood have to keep them for audit purposes for the IRS. It's walking a fine and complicated line between breaching copyright law and breaching tax law.

[norrimac]

Or am I being too cavalier about an important issue?

Looks to me like Belinda has the definitive answer, Trev.

Don't think it's being cavalier at all. Just pragmatic.

Important issue? Nah.

But there's a simple answer: if this kind of 'data storage' IS an important issue, then one should NEVER publish anything online. Period.

[ivettecardoso]

I've been trying for TWO YEARS(!) to delete my files. I searched their help site for "delete account". Once there, if you read the fine print, it says that even if you close your account, people who have already bought from you MUST have access to the files, but no one will be able to buy new ones once you cancel. I personally will wait until I can get my hardcover books off of Amazon.com (Kindle is better anyway). I've had better luck selling instant downloads via Kindle than Lulu anyway. I think we're basically screwed. Good luck, and I hope this helped.

[norrimac]

 "I think we're basically screwed. "

In my experience, the only reason to 'screw' someone is for financial gain.

I don't get it: please explain...

[wolfsinger]

We're screwed because we are losing control of our property. There may be a reason why I don't want Lulu to retain those files - especially if I close my account.

As has been reported by several people who self publish - there is a problem with the 3rd party printers that some of the POD self-publishing companies are using. Files are being used to pirate books and print them WITHOUT reporting sales.

When I retire a project it is being taken out of print and I should be able to be assured that files are being removed. If there is a timeframe that Lulu has to hold files - then that can be inserted into the form email that is sent when a project is retired - letting the copyright holder know that files will be retained for xx number of years - you can request that they be deleted after xx date.

This is a problem with all printers that you upload files and the only way to avoid it is buy my own printing equipment and set myself up as a printer and publisher (anyone want to bankroll that - cuz I can't afford it - that's why I use the companies I use for printing my books)

Lulu doesn't have rights to archive files forever and if a book that is retired suddenly reappears in print they could be looking at serious legal action.Of course books that have been retired have been reactivated by Lulu without authorization - this is why this is a problem.

[kevinlomas]

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wolfsinger wrote:

We're screwed because we are losing control of our property.

Well, in a way, as soon as you put anything on line you lose total control over it. Someone somewhere will be able to copy it regardless of what protection is put on it. You just have to accept that.

 There may be a reason why I don't want Lulu to retain those files - especially if I close my account.

Well I am sure there are. Does closing a Lulu account automatically remove all mention of a book from all the lists Lulu put it in though?

As has been reported by several people who self publish - there is a problem with the 3rd party printers that some of the POD self-publishing companies are using. Files are being used to pirate books and print them WITHOUT reporting sales.

Huh? Who is reporting this and how do they know?

When I retire a project it is being taken out of print

Yes I agree, but it is not removed from the likes of Amazon. It is normally listed as Out Of Print. (So why list it then!) So in principle the files are 'still in use' even though they are not. Lulu's software needs to be adjusted to stop that.

 and I should be able to be assured that files are being removed.

Indeed. It surprised me that when you delete a project the files are not deleted. It gives a whole new meaning to 'Delete'.

If there is a timeframe that Lulu has to hold files -

I am not sure there is, but to save HD storage space perhaps the oldest unused files 'vanish' when need be?

then that can be inserted into the form email that is sent when a project is retired - letting the copyright holder know that files will be retained for xx number of years - you can request that they be deleted after xx date.

Lulu doesn't have rights to archive files forever

Well it does, if some law says it does ...

 and if a book that is retired suddenly reappears in print they could be looking at serious legal action.

And this has happened then? Do you have example? But that is the reason for a Copyright, which is yours to chase up.

Of course books that have been retired have been reactivated by Lulu without authorization -

Ermm, can you prove that? I hope so ...

 this is why this is a problem.

Says who?

 One small grey area of some law other other is the Lulu ISBN. That classes them as the Publisher even if that does not need to be mentioned (the ISBN 'mentions' it anyway). So although the copyrights are ours, perhaps due to the ISBN it gives Lulu the right to, well, publish, and retain the files of any project that has a Lulu ISBN? (Has any one actually read the entire Distribution Pack contract?) I really do not think that Withdrawing a book does withdraw it from the listings, possibly >> just in case. If you un-withdraw a book does it not still have the same ISBN?

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[norrimac]

Hi Carol,

I see your point and with due respect, agree with nothing you say. But I do fully respect your POV.

 A bank is a repository of money. All Lulu is, is a repository of data.

As we both know, there's WAY more chance that a bank will 'steal' your money than an Internet company like Lulu will steal your data and copyrights. (As recent financial shenanigans have clearly shown.)

I feel your worries are really groundless. For a company like Lulu to partake of such criminal activity is possible, but highly unlikely. That's why there are copyright laws and they ARE enforced, daily.

Their business would be closed down fast. But as Kevin says, as a self-publisher, if you find out you've been ripped off by a Lulu sub-contractor, (eg) then you have laws to cover such a situation.

[wolfsinger]

Of course books that have been retired have been reactivated by Lulu without authorization -

Ermm, can you prove that? I hope so ...

Darn straight I can prove it - because it was my files that it happened to. I retired a project with MY ISBN and two months later Lulu reactivated it as an epub - under an ISBN they assigned. So not only did they ignore an opt-out request to NOT convert any of my books, they converted a retired project and released it under their ISBN (that means they co-opted publisher status on a book they did NOT hold a publishing contract for)

I have NEVER used a Lulu owned ISBN (I have bought my ISBNs from them in the past when I first started - I now have my own block from Bowker)

So because of these incidents, I do feel I have cause to be concerned about the inability to delete files and Lulu's inability to post a reason for not allowing. This is why I have suggested that we be allowed to do so. After all once I retire a project or terminate my relationship with Lulu or any other printer - they do not have a reason to have those files as they are no longer authorized to print or distribute the project.

And while this has always been a minor concern for me - it is only because of this recent series of incidents that it has become more of a concern for me - that books were converted without authorization - were assigned a Lulu owned ISBN (something I would never do - I'm a publisher (not a self publisher author) as I use MY ISBNs. And a book that was retired was reconverted and put back on the iBookstore after it was removed from the iBookstore and retired the first time it was converted in violation of the opt-out request.

In the long run Lulu probably isn't going to do anything deliberately - but having all this happened in sucession gives me cause to pause and wonder and ask for ways to protect my authors and our books.

[kevinlomas]

I have always agreed that we should be able to delete the files we put here, afterall, we can take our books out of circulation (even though they remain listed on Amazon!) so what use are the files afterwards?
It baffles me why we cannot. Perhaps it is in case a book sold is faulty or whatever and is returned weeks later under the Distance Selling Regs, to be replaced, and it cannot be, because the files have been deleted!
So I assume there are some regulations and laws and other agreements we know nothing about behind all of this? It would be nice to be told.