07-02-2011 03:23 AM - edited 07-02-2011 03:30 AM
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07-02-2011 04:54 AM
Well quite frankly, I don't, quite, get it.
My preferred way of annoying readers is by finishing a sentence with three, mysterious, dots, like this...
As if something else is going to happen.
But's it's not...
Or is it?
I'm not, too, sure...
07-02-2011 05:23 AM
The issue is that using the Oxford comma is proper English and not using it it proper American, so its a battleground for the written English language.
If a comma denotes a brief pause then something like blood, toil, tears, and sweat is correct. Try reading it aloud in a Churchilian accent -- there's a definite pause before the 'and'.
It's 'tears (pause) and sweat', not 'tears'n'sweat'
07-02-2011 05:57 AM
Unfortunately It's not an American vs English thing: you can find examples of the Oxford comma being used in texts written and published on either side of the Atlantic over the past century or more. (For instance, the style guide of the London Times as well as that of the Cambridge University Press recommendsagainst it. Additionally, non-academic publishers in Australia, Canada and South Africa all tend to not use the Oxford comma unless doing so introduces an ambiguity.)
There are a couple of problems with the Oxford comma. The first is that in a list, the comma is really taking the place of the word "and". For instance, "apples, oranges, pears and peaches" could just as sensibly be written "apples and oranges and pears and peaches". The Oxford comma in this case is a redundancy (since the last pair would come out "pears and and peaches").
The commas also imply pauses. And again, the Oxford comma introduces a pause that sounds extremely peculiar when placed before the word "and". Perhaps not so much if a list is read in a Churchillian accent, but who in the world wants to do that? (Besides, he smoked so much he was probably just gasping for breath.) Read any list slowly and distinctly in your normal voice, making each pause between words as identical as possible, and see for yourself how odd it sounds placing the same pause before "and" that you have placed between the previous words. The word "and" all by itself inserts sufficient distance between the final two words.
I think the final determination is the question: Is the sentence best served by using the comma or not? If an ambiguity or confusion is introduced by its omission, by all means use it. Otherwise it is simply unnecessary. It might be thought a spin-off of Occam's Razor: don't introduce unnecessary complications. A pendantic use of the Oxford comma---that is, using it regardless of the situation---is counterproductive. Punctuate just enough for the sake of sense...and no more.
07-02-2011 06:41 AM
Ron, you said:
A pendantic use of the Oxford comma---that is, using it regardless of the situation---is counterproductive.
While lacking a uni/college degree in English, I feel that the Oxford comma must surely be a close relative of the 'em dash', as in your sentence above?
Norman
07-02-2011 07:00 AM
I never understood the em dash but I found a great way to do them on MS Word - CTL ALT & the dash on the numeral key board.
If Ron could give an explanationof when to use an em dash and when to use a normal one I'd be grateful, happy, educated(,) and chuffed.
07-02-2011 07:53 AM
I have Word 2010 and on my keyboard it's Ctrl+ the hyphen on the numeric keyboard.***
Where I use the m-dash – and I use it a lot – is as in this sentence when I want to interject a comment or a slight deviation in thought, still relative to the sentence. (Actually, this might be an n-dash.)
***This only works in Word. In this window it shrinks the browser to ant-size! Me eyeballs hurt!!!
Norman.
PS It's called an m-dash or n-dash coz it's the same width as a capital M or N.
07-02-2011 07:57 AM - edited 07-02-2011 07:58 AM
norrimac wrote:
I have Word 2010 and on my keyboard it's Ctrl+ the hyphen on the numeric keyboard.***
Try CTL + ALT + hyphen on the numeric keyboard !!
- = main keyboard
– = CTL + ALT + hyphen on the numeric keyboard
— = CTL + ALT + hyphen on the numeric keyboard
PS - Re your PS: I don't know that
07-02-2011 08:04 AM
Thank for a very interesting topic, Ken. While writing my book, I opted not to use the Oxford comma and was quickly admonished by my editor and by the folks at Lulu Quality edit.
My questions are, how would not using it get by some editors and publishing houses? And, could mean the difference in a new writers ability in getting published in a very discerning market. I chose to err on the side of caution and leave them in.
Good question by Peter. When to use the em dash? I was told; when used in dialog, it is to signify the abrupt end of speech.
"What in the world is--"
Thanks for some great thoughts here!
07-02-2011 09:07 AM
I just realised that I don't have the same Ctrl + functions coz I have a Spanish keyboard.
Then again, you guys can't go ÑÑÑÑÑ or ñññññ or ÇÇÇÇÇ so yah boo sucks.
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Peter, I didn't know about the m or n dash either. I googled it.
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Tim, there has to be (surely) a degree of artistic leeway? Admittedly, an editor is there to edit but at the end of the day, we're writing to please our reader and write what we want to write in the way we wanna write it?
As for them thar m-dashes, I have read that they're also used --- and this might be wrong --- instead of round brackets.
As for them thar m-dashes, I have read that they're also used (and this might be wrong) instead of round brackets.
Norman.

