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What do you think

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37875695    I'd like to know your views on what's happening in Canada. It must be so difficult to write if we have to use all those different pronouns. I believe there are laws supporting the new pronouns in some places in the USA and a law will probably be made here in England. 
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Comments

  • A couple of states and cities have laws either proposed or on the books regarding the use of gender pronouns in very limited matters such as in contracts, leases, etc. There are no laws dictating their use in literature, advertising, journalism, etc.
    https://www.politifact.com/california/article/2017/sep/26/claims-mislead-about-california-bill-forcing-jail-/
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/transgender-pronouns-fine-nyc/

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  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    That's good to know. Still it must be difficult to remember all those different pronouns for professors in Canada. I am a retired teacher and I would definitely make an effort to get the pronoun right, but I think it would have been hard. We have a transgender (Male to female) and I have no problems referring to her with the feminine pronouns that she prefers. However some people in our Market Town still refer to her as him, he etc. Imagine the chaos if they had to use the many different pronouns. Some of us here would try but others--------.!!!  Here are some of the pronouns.Pronoun cards 2016-02
  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius
    I don't see the problem, or why laws even have to be made for it. Although the problem can be due just to birth certificates. If it says you were born a boy or a girl, legally that's what you are always classed as, even when surgery and pharmaceuticals has changed one's sex. I think that's what they are trying to get changed. But in general everyday life, if a person wants to be called female or male and dress as such, then that's their choice. But who on earth ever asks, "By the way. Are you a male or a female?" Even when it's in doubt!
  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    I wonder how many people would address a single person as they--

    "Genderqueer, also known as non-binary, is a catch-all category for gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine —‌identities which are outside the gender binary,and cisnormativity. Genderqueer people may express a combination of masculinity and femininity, or neither, in theirgender expression.

    Genderqueer people may identify as either having an overlap of, or indefinite lines between, gender identity; having two or more genders (being bigender, trigender, or pangender) having no gender (being agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois); moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid);or being third gender or other-gendered, a category which includes those who do not place a name to their gender."Wikipedia.     Imagine having to write a novel with all those pronouns. 

  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius
    Advertising executives, for decades, have always managed to split target audiences in to seven 'sexes.' Work them out!
  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius
    There's no need to use all those descriptions in fiction. They are male or female. If they change then they are female or male. If they are inbetween, then there's no real need to say so unless it's important to the story. But there's always been PC names used to describe them. As I say, the possible change in laws, as Ron has said, is only to do with what it says on a birth cert. They cannot be changed, but what people want to be openly known as, has.
  • Larika said:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37875695    I'd like to know your views on what's happening in Canada. It must be so difficult to write if we have to use all those different pronouns. I believe there are laws supporting the new pronouns in some places in the USA and a law will probably be made here in England. 
    imho, it's absurd, and being as it is absolutely impractical, it will quickly go the way of Esperanto.
  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    Gosh Skoob, when Professor Gordon Peterson also claimed that "it was absurd and impractical" there was an outcry at the University of Toronto, He received two written warnings, and was in danger of losing his job following his announcement that he would refuse to use the preferred gender pronouns of students. The use of such pronouns is mandatory under a recently instituted Canadian law, Bill C-16.  Esperanto was never made mandatory. Maybe these multi pronouns won't just fizzle away.
  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius
    I blame religion, even though there's no Commandment to say, you cannot be transgender.
  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius
    But, do we live in Canada? I know I don't.
  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius
    Well, like many other things, it will not effect how we write.
  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    edited November 27
    "I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man
    And so is Lola." "Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
    It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world" The Kinks "Lola" 1970.  Are we "a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world" in 2018, or just more enlightened?
  • If I am ever sued over my use of pronouns, I will announce to the court that my preferred pronouns are Armadillo, Artaxerxes, and Moazagotl. And I will laugh my backside off reading the resulting transcript.
  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    edited November 27

    OK so supposing someone wrote a book about a non-binary person and it’s based in Canada. The scene in the chapter is a classroom and the teacher points to 16 year old Zink, a non-binary and the protagonist of the novel.

     “He will lead the group into the hall,” explains the teacher, pointing to Zink

     “Pardon Sir, since being called "he" or "she" doesn't feel right to me, I have decided to change my pronouns to singular they and the other pronouns are, they, them, their, theirs, themself.  I would appreciate it if you would address me using these pronouns. As in, they are Zink, that's them. They will read their book by themself. I like these singular gender-neutral pronouns the best because they were used by Shakespeare, Jane Austen, and other great writers. They have been a part of English for a long time. From now on, please call me by "they" pronouns, instead of "he" or "she".

     “Mr Chapman, do you really expect me to say, they will lead the group into the hall, when I am referring to a single person?”

     “Yes Sir.”

     “ But this is totally ridiculous and thoroughly confusing. I’m sorry Mr Chapman I just won’t do it!”

     “It’s the law sir, Canadian law Bill C-16.”

    And so on-------The Genderqueer community would love it. Imagine, it could become a bestseller!!


  • Maybe one of my preferred "pronouns" should be "As proclaimed in prophecy" and another "The Merciful."

    "The Merciful shall lead the class into the hallway when As proclaimed in prophecy is ready." It has a certain ring to it...
  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    edited November 27
    >one of my preferred "pronouns" should be "As proclaimed in prophecy" and another "The Merciful." ."The Merciful shall lead the class into the hallway when As proclaimed in prophecy is ready." It has a certain ring to it. Sounds good! Maybe we could all make up our own pronouns, then we really would be a

    Shook-up, mixed-up, muddled-up"

    world :)
  • Larika are you in a position where you encounter a lot of transgender day to day, and that's why you are concerned how to address them?
    Tim Reinholt Author of Pow, a ski bum heist adventure
  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile

    Larika are you in a position where you encounter a lot of transgender day to day, and that's why you are concerned how to address them?

    Here in my community many people will not call the few transgender people we have by their preferred pronoun. It has become an issue. I call Andrea "she" because that's how she wants to be addressed, however many still insist on calling her "he." When some talk about her they sometimes call her a "he/she" It is very hurtful to her. We don't have any people wanting all sorts of different pronouns like my friend told me they have in Canada. However in the future maybe more and more genderqueer (that is what they want to be called) may come out of the closet. 
    PS You might ask why do I write about the problems women have in Saudi Arabia. I know no one there! Well I just think certain things in this world are worrying.
  • Nice to see that a search in the Lulu Shop for transgender gets over 1500 results
    Tim Reinholt Author of Pow, a ski bum heist adventure
  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius

    Are we "a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world" in 2018, or just more enlightened

    It depends on the country people live in. But things slowly change as the citizens see what is going on in other countries. It's hard to keep one's citizens in the dark when they have the internet.

    It's often said that it was the Fax machine that helped bring down the Berlin wall.

  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius

    OK so supposing someone wrote a book about a non-binary person and it’s based in Canada. The scene in the chapter is a classroom and the teacher points to 16 year old Zink, a non-binary and the protagonist of the novel.

    It's somewhat of a dark matter, because it would be rude to call someone 'it', rather than he or she. In so called real life a person should be known by what they want to be known by, but the law feels it needs to clear up what a person actually is - only in the eyes of the law. But I don't see how a birth certificate should be changed after someone has had a sex-change, because they were what they were at the time of birth, and what does it matter what they once were?

    Anyhow, it would be hard to ban a book that's not published in the country that's trying to ban it. Granted they can officially ban the sale of it in the actual country, but how can they stop the sale of it, say, on Amazon UK or Amazon Australia? And history has always proven that any banned book becomes a best seller.  :)

  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile

    It's somewhat of a dark matter, because it would be rude to call someone 'it', rather than he or she. </p In his best seller book “A Child called It,” David Pelzer describes the abuse he suffered for several years of childhood, including continual mistreatment and beatings by his mother, She chose to use the pronoun “it” to show her utter contempt for her son Dave, .I don’t believe any of the transgender or genderqueer community would use such a pronoun to describe themselves, If one uses “It! Instead of their preferred pronoun it is definitely being rude

  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile

    Regarding Birth Certificates many countries have adopted laws to accommodate non-binary and transgender identities.

    In the USA most states permit the name and sex of a transgender person  to be changed on a birth certificate, either through amending the existing birth certificate or by issuing a new one, but some of these states require medical proof of sex reassignment surgery before they will change the birth certificate.

     In the Uk many feel there is a need for reform of the Gender Recognition Act. As one anonymous writer wrote in The Guardian,

    "However, in order to be legally recognised for who I am, I have to navigate demeaning and time-consuming bureaucracy. I must submit a portfolio of evidence – to a group of people who don’t know me and whom I will never meet – that I’ve lived in my true gender for the past two years. I have to get medical reports including two diagnoses of gender dysphoria. If I was married, I’d have to ask my spouse for their permission to be myself.

    When I’ve gone through this exhausting process, the evidence is sent to a gender recognition panel. And I have to pay £140 to hear whether people I’ll never meet decide if I’m a woman.

    The medical requirements are especially awful. In practice we are still required to have a psychiatrist or a psychologist confirm that we have a psychological condition that causes us to be trans. Given the waiting lists for gender identity services across the UK, this commonly takes a few years.

    It’s unsurprising that so few of us go through this.


  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius
    I still say you are what you are at birth, when born, and that is what has to be legally registered. If anyone changes that biological fact during their life then perhaps there should be a registered 'Rebirth' Certificate? That's what it boils down to really, government Registration. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
  • Just KevinJust Kevin Lulu Genius

    It’s unsurprising that so few of us go through this.

    I assume they are not meaning the population as a whole.

  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    edited November 29
    What I hadn't realized, until I did some research, is that there are several genderqueer writers, who like people to use their preferred pronoun. Here's one review of a nonbinary writer.
     "Eileen Myles is maybe one of the most important writers working today. They have produced a massive bibliography, including the iconic memoir Chelsea Girls. Other works to check out include Afterglow (a dog memoir), and I Must Be Living Twice. Now, here’s the deal—you’ll do some googling and see Myles identified as female in several places, and referred to as a lesbian. But they have self-identified both on their website and on Twitter as “they,” so, here we are. Legendary nonbinary.
    I have never read a nonbinary writer's book. I checked on Lulu and nothing came up. Note the reviewer refers to Myers not as "she" but as "they."  

  • LarikaLarika Bibliophile
    edited November 29
    I still say you are what you are at birth, when born, and that is what has to be legally registered.
    Yes Kevin and here in the Uk it's really, really difficult for a nonbinary or transgender person to change their birth certificates. In some countries it's much easier. I know a lot of people find it very difficult to understand where they are coming from. I try to be sympathetic to the situation they find themselves. Nonbinary people are not exclusively masculine or feminine. Eileen Myles is both male and female but registered at birth as a female. A transgender person feels they are trapped in the wrong body. Many commit suicide because of the situation they find themselves in. Should we show compassion to them?
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